To Steal or Not to Steal
Todays argument is brought to you by the American Bar assoc.
Some one (lets call him Jack Belen) says that if you take a ten dollar bill from a person and replace it with a different ten dollar bill without his knowledge or permission. that it is not "stealing". Some one else ( lets call him ME) says that it is stealing. My logic is that once you take someone"s object and do a kinyan on it, it is stolen. It doesnt mater that you replace it with an identical object. Jack's argument is that no one would be "makpid" on which ten dollar bill he had. It is the same money.
If you would like to vote and agree with me, than I would be happy to hear your opinion, ( If you would like to vote for the other side I'll listen but I wont be happy)
The DAD
Some one (lets call him Jack Belen) says that if you take a ten dollar bill from a person and replace it with a different ten dollar bill without his knowledge or permission. that it is not "stealing". Some one else ( lets call him ME) says that it is stealing. My logic is that once you take someone"s object and do a kinyan on it, it is stolen. It doesnt mater that you replace it with an identical object. Jack's argument is that no one would be "makpid" on which ten dollar bill he had. It is the same money.
If you would like to vote and agree with me, than I would be happy to hear your opinion, ( If you would like to vote for the other side I'll listen but I wont be happy)
The DAD
posted by dad at
10:47 PM
8 Comments:
Is there a difference in this case between American law and Halacha?
By
Veev, at 6:38 AM
once you take it its stealing but once you return it then you fix the sin that you committed it is irrelevant which ten dollars he gets whether it is 10 singles, 2 fives or even quarters
By
docyaak, at 8:19 AM
Can we (Jews) "fix" sins? I thought that's the for the Goyim? Hail Marys and all that...
By
Veev, at 8:39 AM
If you replace it concurrently, it MAY not be stealing. Otherwise it certainly is. As to "fixing" it, there is a sugya about this in Bava Kama (Perek 10 Mishna 8, Daf 118) with different talmudic opinions & even more opinions in the rishonim who explain the sugya.The issue there is if you are still liable for post-return damages. The mishna is about an animal but the gmara discusses money from a wallet as well.
By
Shlomo, at 11:33 AM
As to fixing sins in general, there is a concept of לאו הניתק לעשה (Lav HaNitak Le'Aseh) where a negative mitzva is attached to a positive one, which "fixes it". For instance, shiluach haken. It's forbidden to take the mother, but if you did - send it away. Another example is Notar - it's forbidden, but if you do have leftovers - burn them. If you fulfill the attached Aseh, you are exempt from Malkot for the Lav (again, there is a machloket but this is the accepted shita). You can find teh shiluach haken example in in Chulin Perek 12 Mishna 4.
Also, returning a theft is considered "fixing" it in some sense.
By
Shlomo, at 11:37 AM
I don't think it is stealing. the bill has no value to it any more than any other bill so it does not matter. I think the real issue is why are you switching a ten dollar bill with another ten dollar bill. What are you gaining out of it? And if you are gaining, is the other guy than losing? If he isn't, and you are, then its "זה נהנה וזה לא חסר"
By
stillruleall, at 1:15 PM
I think you stole it, but then did teshuva, unless of course you took a special 10 dollar bill that, unknown to the owner, was worth more then 10 bucks...then you guilty
By
Just Shu, at 2:50 AM
i would like 10 dollars.
By
SHEV, at 3:42 PM
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